Cash Flowing vs. Exiting Your Ecommerce Business

Geoff: Hey, everyone. Thanks so much for joining today's video. My name is Geoff. I'm the Head of Marketing here at A2X, ecommerce accounting automation software for the world's leading Shopify, Amazon, eBay, Etsy, and Walmart sellers, as well as their accounting partners. And speaking of partners, I'm joined today by Richard from Chronos Now, ecommerce accounting and inventory experts, as well as Jason from GW Partners, exit and valuation experts.

They're both here today to talk to me about a topic that is either at the front or the back of the minds of most ecommerce business owners right now, which is how do you think about continuing to fund your business, whether it's through your own cash flow, or when it might be time to think about selling the business, and what the implications of that might be and what to expect from a valuation standpoint.

Now, I know that there are other options, whether that's lending or potential investment from third parties, but we're going to focus here today on these two outcomes: cash flowing your business, or potentially selling your business. These guys are experts. I just want to say, Jason and Richard, thanks so much for joining me today and lending your voice.

Jason: Thanks, Geoff. Appreciate it, man.

Richard: Glad to be here.

Geoff: Jason, I'm going to start with you. I mentioned earlier that this is a topic that is either at the front or the back of the minds of most ecommerce business owners. Do you mind letting me know why most people are thinking about this, and then we can jump into what they need to consider when they're deciding which path to take?

Jason: Yeah. Well, I think as far as the why, I mean, as a business owner you're usually aiming for some outcome. It's either going to be some exit at some future point, or you're building your business to generate personal income for a certain type of lifestyle or your personal goals. So usually you're building your business for one of those two reasons, at least from a financial goals standpoint.

And I think the real important factor to decide whether you keep running and cash flowing the business, or potentially sell it, is to actually have an actual, comprehensive personal financial plan that covers all parts of your life and how the business fits into it. If you fully understand and have that plan, it allows you to be armed with the right information to make the right decision.

Geoff: Love it, love it. And speaking about having the right information to make the right decision, Richard, do you mind talking to me a little bit about how that factors in practical financial terms?

Richard: Well, I think in practical financial terms, you're thinking about whether you're getting cash flows every year for a couple of years, or whether you're selling and exiting and getting more of the economics today. I think a big part of this is the emotional component, right? Through everything that's been happening in the last few years, founders have been through a bit of a wild ride. And the problem is a lot of people rush to wanting to exit because they want to get out, but if they don't have some type of plan, they might make poor decisions upfront.

Geoff: Yeah, and a lot of it feels like setting themselves up for success for when the right time does occur. Things are so uncertain, especially as it relates to tariffs right now. I can't tell you if we say something today, by the time we publish the video the rules of the game might change. We can't say these external factors don't influence somebody's decision on whether to continue running and cash flowing the business, or to sell it. But the important factor I think we're going to get into next is being prepared for the right moment.

And a big part of that is having solid financials. Jason, do you mind talking to me about, when you're valuing a business, what type of financial documentation is important to have in place to understand what somebody could potentially get for their organization?

Jason: Yeah, I mean, I think it starts with the most basic foundational item, which is just really good accrual bookkeeping, which allows you to produce accurate income statements, balance sheets and cash flow statements. That's the foundation upon which any valuation is going to be built. If that's shaky or not properly constructed, you've built it on a shoddy base, so it will likely fall apart under scrutiny. It goes all the way down to your basic bookkeeping, making sure the accounting is actually accurate, it's accrual based, and the statements that come out of it are reliable. That's the fundamental first thing.

Geoff: And then, Richard, I have a question, kind of a curveball here, but as an accounting firm owner you get to see tons of ecommerce businesses. How many that come to your door have what Jason needs to create a clear financial picture?

Richard: Well, by the time someone's coming to us, that's pretty much zero of them, right? Because we work with Jason as one of the leading ecom investment banks, so Jason's clients are going through some type of due diligence and are in the process of being incubated towards that. The reality is most founders don't value their accounting because they don't understand it. So they've either got cash basis, or specifically the cost of goods sold is a mess, which is really difficult to fix. We specialize in fixing that COGS component. Most people have gone somewhere else, doing cheap, low-cost accounting, which is good enough for a tax return. But by the time they're thinking about an exit, they realize they need to get their figures corrected. So we're in a situation where most people are coming to us because they want to exit and their accounts are a mess.

Geoff: Got it. And then from an accounting perspective, how do you set them up to appropriately calculate things like true cash flow, COGS, and so on, so they can meet the needs Jason and team have to appropriately evaluate their business?

Richard: There's two main things. Let's talk about revenue first. Sales, founders specifically, if they're multi-channel, their Shopify store often has everything else plugged into it, Amazon, Etsy. They're often double counting, or even worse, only counting cash flows. That's where you guys come in, A2X is the leading tool in the market to really pull out the revenue and put it in the correct periods, not just when it's paid. It takes a bit of setup. The second thing, a bit more complicated, is cost of goods sold. A2X has a standard costing approach where you can put in a good landed cost per unit, which helps get a good enough accrual number for larger, more complex multichannel sellers. You do need an inventory system too. If you don't have that in place, you're going to have trouble getting that data correct.

Geoff: So the TL;DR here is, before we can even get to a decision around whether to continue cash flowing the business or when and why to sell, you need accurate financials: accrual-based accounting, all of your financial statements in order, profit and loss statement, balance sheet, cash flow, cost of goods sold.

Richard, I'm going to pass the mic to you, and ask you a relatively simple question: now that you have this structure in place, how do you start to consider the two paths you have ahead of you?

Richard: To just restate the two paths: cash flowing your business versus an exit. In an exit, you get a big chunk of money at one time, maybe with a bit of an earn-out. With cash flowing the business, you're looking at 3 to 5 years, and how much money you get every year over the next five years, after tax. And a dollar in five years is not worth a dollar today, so you need to discount that to today's money. Then you get a numerical basis of what the next five years of cash flow is worth compared to selling today, and that gives you a framework. But you need your financials and your accounts, high-quality accounts in place, otherwise it's rubbish in, rubbish out for that decision. If you don't have the correct data, the decision is very flawed.

Geoff: Well, it's hard to make a decision, it's hard to know how much cash flow you're projected into the future, it's hard to know the actual value of your business. Jason, speaking to the valuation of a business, how do you use all of these financial statements and information to understand what a business is valued, so they can understand the other side of that coin: if they were to sell today, what could they actually get for their organization?

Jason: Sure. Yeah. Some of the key components that go into that valuation process are things like the most recent trends in revenue, margins, EBITDA, which is earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization for those in the audience who aren't as aware. That's probably the single most important metric for valuing a company, typically of the type we work with. So a multiple of EBITDA is the valuation methodology most buyers will use, with a lot of other data influencing that multiple: growth rates of both revenue and margins, profits at every level of the income statement. Having all of that information correct is critical to showing what the business has done in the recent past, even back to its inception.

And then, of course, projecting into the future, because ultimately that's what a buyer is buying. They're buying the future, using the past to help them get comfortable predicting the future. So, as Richard said, you've got two things happening that are both future-based. Future cash flows, what's it worth if I just keep the business? And then a buyer who's going to try to value the future of this business and put a price on it.

Geoff: You're also taking a little bit of risk off the table if you choose to sell, right?

Jason: There's two types of risk. I think a lot of people, when they think risk, only think downside risk, but you take upside and downside risk both off the table. A lot of times that decision is often based on an owner's confidence in the future. The more confident and positive they feel, a lot of times the less likely they are to consider selling the business.

Geoff: It's also interesting from a timing perspective. There are certain macro conditions that make buying and selling not the right time, or the right time, but having all of these things in place sets you up for success when you potentially want to pull the trigger, which is an incredibly important factor.

Jason, I do have a question. As mentioned, it's April, a lot of uncertainty in the ecommerce space right now, sentiment-wise. From an M&A perspective, is now a decent time, or would you recommend people wait? What's your general feeling?

Jason: Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think the answer has been similar over the last three-plus years, which is it's very specific, typically to a particular founder's situation. There's not really one blanket answer that applies to the majority of owners. Generally speaking, in an M&A environment, two things happen in periods like this. You get a lot of people who just hit the pause button, wanting to stop and wait and see, let the turbulence simmer down before making any big decisions. And then you have people looking to be opportunists, looking for things that are mispriced and happen to be available for sale, bargain hunting a lot of times. Where it gets difficult is if you have a really strong business and you want a really premium valuation because you believe you deserve it, given the quality of the business you've built. Periods like this are difficult for those kinds of owners to really get what they're looking for. But there are lots of other situations where it still makes sense for a seller to exit the business for a variety of reasons.

Geoff: That's one of the beauties of having good cash flow, right? You're effectively buying yourself time to make a decision over the long term.

Jason: You are. And one of the flip sides, which isn't really talked about, is in a period of disruption where a larger percentage of businesses may be hitting more negative trends, if you're one of the businesses that's not doing that, you stand out and look much more desirable compared to the mean. There's a kind of scarcity value there that can counterbalance things.

Geoff: So, Jason, you talked about EBITDA multiples as one way to evaluate a business. I know this is an impossible question since it changes depending on a multitude of factors, but what multiples are we seeing in the market today?

Jason: Yeah, I think, I agree it is an impossible question, but I'm not afraid to answer it. It's historically, and continues to be, a little bit based on size. I tend to categorize businesses into 0 to 10 million in revenue, 10 to 50 million, and 50 million plus. For the smaller end, 0 to 10, for businesses that do transact in that world, you're typically seeing around 4 to 5 times EBITDA for good quality, upper-quartile type businesses. From the peak in 2021, that's down probably at least 35%, and in a lot of cases there are businesses that frankly aren't sellable now that would have been sellable during those big pandemic-era e-comm business sale frenzy days. When you go up in size, the multiples tend to go up from there, and even with the largest private sales in the middle market and large middle market, we're seeing the ceiling in that high single digits to low double digits neighborhood of a multiple of EBITDA.

Geoff: Nice. And, Richard, how do other dimensions, like inventory as an example, factor into valuation in your experience?

Richard: I think it's not just cash flow that's the driver of it. Sometimes you've got to check which multiple we're talking about, are we talking about a multiple that includes inventory, or an EBITDA multiple plus inventory? You've all seen websites talking about an eight multiple, but it was really a two multiple plus inventory. EBITDA tries to be a predictor of future cash flows, but for guys selling smaller businesses they'll often use the term seller's discretionary earnings, for someone selling a million-dollar business you're trying to figure out what the return is as an investor. If you're buying something at a four multiple, you're expecting to earn 25% return year on year.

What's really important to note is there's a big risk factor in how big or small that multiple is. If you're an Amazon-only business and you're smaller, there's a high risk it's not going to work out, so you might get a two-and-a-half, maybe a three multiple. But if you're multi-channel, say 60% of your sales on Shopify with your own website and 70% of that is subscription-based revenue, your multiple is going to be higher because you're lower risk, less chance of things going wrong. The adjustments for things like inventory, Jason can correct me if I'm wrong, but sometimes buyers want you to keep three months of working capital in the bank, and you usually want to exclude any financing that's on the balance sheet. But it's important to note you've got to chase earnings, while also thinking about the riskiness of your business in order to drive up multiples and value.

Geoff: You guys work with tons of ecommerce businesses, get a window into their financials, talk to them. I'm positive you could quickly make a distinction between whether they should continue to cash flow the business or sell it, right away. Is that true? Can you guys quickly come to a conclusion on what path to take?

Jason: Yeah, fortunately for the clients, that is true. We can tend to pretty quickly give them a really good assessment. A lot of times, when it comes to just the math of it, the larger the multiple of EBITDA the business could fetch in a sale, the greater the chance it makes sense to sell.

But to be more specific about this idea of cash flowing versus selling: a simple example with a growing business in ecommerce, usually a lot of the cash is going back into the business to invest in more inventory in particular, that's the number one vacuum of cash in a growing e-com business. So you might have a million dollars in EBITDA, but you really only put $200,000 in your actual pocket as the founder. And let's say that million-dollar EBITDA business could get a three multiple, that's $3 million. So that's a three multiple of EBITDA, but it's a 15 multiple of what you actually put in your pocket. A founder really understanding that, and saying it would take me 15 years at this rate to put this amount of money in my pocket, versus putting it in my pocket in six months through a sale, that's the kind of analysis we really try to help founders think through. And I know Richard is doing a lot of the same on the accounting side, making sure we can get to that accurate number so they're really understanding the reality of the situation.

Geoff: Richard, do you have anything to add, given that I'm assuming you also have that instinct for knowing the right path to take?

Richard: I think you've got to be cautious when an accountant tries to give that instinct. We know the numbers, but we might not know the practicalities. I had a previous career in M&A myself, but I know how difficult it is to sell a business, I've always been on the buy side. Selling a business isn't easy because founders have a lot of misconceptions about what their business is worth, because they read somewhere that someone else got three times revenue, some made-up number. I wouldn't say I've got the same feel for it that Jason does, it's not what we do. We get the numbers right so Jason can work with founders, it's a very specialized skill. I wouldn't say we've got that gut feel, but we need to be able to get the numbers correct and understand the mess. I can do a spreadsheet, but I can't help you solve your business, because there's not just money involved, there's also a whole bunch of emotions. If someone is burnt out and exhausted and hates their business versus someone who's excited about their business but is just thinking about it from a money perspective, they're going to want a higher multiple because they believe it's going to grow, but maybe the buyer isn't as convinced. So the math is one thing, but there's a lot of emotion involved in this process, because it's someone's child, they've played and sweated for this thing.

Geoff: 100%. Yeah, that's a really wonderful point.

I think that's a good segue into the next section, which is: okay, you're now talking to potential buyers, going through a due diligence process. Jason, I'm curious, we talked about the importance of accrual-based accounting and having your financial statements in order. Can you tell me about any stories where the accounting actually jeopardized a potential deal, and what that looked like?

Jason: Yeah, actually, unfortunately, I have more stories than we have time for. That being said, we certainly try to do quite a bit of work up front to uncover any issues ahead of time, and a lot of times that will result in a long delay in going to market in the first place. That's usually where we catch things, early, so what you thought was going to be a month to market becomes six months because we have to fix all your accounting before we can show it to anybody. That happens quite often.

We had one recently where, unfortunately, there was a pretty big miss from the accountant's perspective in putting together their cost of goods, which, as Richard mentioned, tends to be a particular problem area for a lot of ecommerce businesses. We ended up having to fully restate the accounts in the middle of diligence. What happens there is the buyer's confidence in what's been presented goes down significantly, you completely lose momentum in your deal process, and the buyer becomes skeptical about everything. Then ultimately the price they want to pay starts to go down. That doesn't happen too often, because you're usually catching things up front, but it does happen. I can't stress enough how negative things being uncovered in due diligence kill deals far more often than even business performance taking a turn. In diligence, if a buyer uncovers something they weren't told about, or no one knew about, and it's negative, it's a domino effect of confidence, they just lose it.

Geoff: 100%. Hey, Richard, in the spirit of, you mentioned that sellers doing sub-10-million are more likely bought rather than sold, and we've been talking about needing accurate accounting to set yourself up for success whether you're planning to sell today or tomorrow, at what point for those sub-10-million sellers would you say it's important to get your books in order to set yourself up for future success?

Richard: So there's a cost-benefit here. There's a lot of cheap accountants and automated accounting solutions on the market at the moment, they're not great but they get enough of the job done. The reality is we have a bit of an internal cutoff, if you're doing less than $50,000 a month, we're generally trying to point you toward a cheaper option, we might use a lighter approach to how we treat COGS, because the variance is small enough that the additional cost and work isn't really worthwhile. But I generally find somewhere between 30 and 50 thousand dollars a month in turnover, you really want to start taking your COGS seriously.

For the slightly smaller guy doing 15 or 20 thousand a month, I still recommend a tool like A2X to at least get your revenue very accurate, because at that size, being a little off on COGS here and there isn't an absolute crisis, you can still go to a bank and get a loan if you need to. But if your revenue is just whatever came in from Amazon, that's not revenue, there are Amazon fees in there, some of it might be sales from last month. That's what's really powerful about A2X, not just giving you actual revenue versus channel fees, but getting the revenue into the correct months. Amazon takes two weeks for a settlement, so if you get paid out on the 3rd of March, most of those sales relate to February, and you need to show those in February. I think it gets very important once you start crossing $1 million, or maybe $3 million a year, that a lot of extra effort has to go into COGS and inventory. But understand that's going to roughly double your bookkeeping, accounting, and inventory systems fee, so you're weighing cost versus benefit the whole time.

Geoff: You have to pay for it eventually though, right? Especially in the context of what we're talking about today, there's no reality where you get to a point where you don't have to go through due diligence if you're selling a business, and they're going to want a clear picture of your financials.

Actually, that's a really good point. Jason, historically, from a financial perspective, how far back do you guys usually look?

Jason: Well, I think the rule of thumb is a minimum of two years that you feel really good about the accuracy of. That's the minimum, obviously we'd rather have the full history be perfect, but two years is the floor. A lot of times buyers beyond that will still want to look at information to understand the history of the business, it's told through the numbers. But in terms of what's really going into their valuation models and forecast prediction models, it's the last two years.

Geoff: Nice. And, Richard, I love what you said in terms of when to start thinking about it, because you've probably done a lot of catch-up work in your career, and in my opinion that's some of the hardest work to do, it's hard to access the data. So getting on this as early as possible, even with a lightweight solution, and then as you get bigger and your accounting requirements become more complex, starting to work with an accounting firm like Chronos Now becomes even more important.

So, Jason, you mentioned having two years of accurate accounting data, great, but accurate accounting data changes depending on who you speak to, because most people are going to think their accounting data is accurate. Richard, you and I have been in the game a long time, we've seen a lot of books, and the reality is not two companies are alike in this area. How do you quickly evaluate if somebody actually has accurate financials versus not, and how can people watching this video quickly make that same evaluation?

Richard: Yeah, I've got, let's call it a party trick. I look at every new client in the first 15 minutes. I'll pull up the last 12 months, and I'll look at the total revenue per sales channel and compare it to what Shopify or Amazon reports for the same period. I'll pick three random months and see if it's almost exactly the same, since the risk is people duplicating other sales channels into Shopify and overstating.

The second thing I do is look at gross profit, defined as sales minus your product cost of goods sold, take that gross profit and divide it by revenue to get a gross profit percentage. If I look at that month on month over 12 months and it's not relatively stable, then I know something's generally wrong with the COGS or inventory. Sometimes there's a story, a tariff landed last month and there's a spike in COGS, gross profit changes, and there's a legitimate reason. Then I'd finish with a quick look at the balance sheet, founders are notorious for ignoring the balance sheet. Look at your inventory-on-hand balance, recalculate what that should be, roughly inventory count times cost. If that number isn't pretty close, I'm talking 90 to 110%, then your books are broken, something's not working and your numbers are made up. I can do that in 15 minutes for any company, and that's generally how I decide if the books are in good shape, need work, or if I can accept what's already in there.

Geoff: You heard it here first, Chronos Now is offering a service where Richard will run his party trick and let you know if your books are in order or broken.

Richard: You joke, but part of what we do is keep office hours three days a week.

Geoff: Oh, nice.

Richard: People can book a half-hour call and we'll have a quick look and give feedback. Jump on our website and book a time.

Geoff: And I think Jason's got a similar approach on his side. Nice. You know what, to that end, we'll put the link in the description below if you want to connect with either Richard or Jason and their teams for these office hours.

So a lot of the discussion up to this point has been around the business owner's decision to either continue cash flowing the business or sell it. Let's assume they've now made the decision to sell, based on all the information available to them and the emotional factors involved. Jason, I'll ask this to you: what can they do to make their business very desirable for potential buyers?

Jason: Yeah, I think some of that depends on the timeline they're working with. We work with a lot of clients two years plus before we plan to go to market, and really try to guide them on developing their business so it's an increasingly more attractive acquisition target.

The kinds of things buyers really care about are growth and future growth opportunities, plenty of blue sky for the business, and being able to define and show those opportunities exist, even if you're an owner who doesn't want to actually execute on them before passing the baton to the next generation of ownership. Predictability is always highly valued. A lot of times founders will chase really fast growth in a segment that may also see a fast contraction, more volatility results in lower valuations, so buyers would rather see steady upward continuous movement rather than a lot of fits and starts. So building a business that can be predicted moving forward is key, and diversification is usually part of that. Having a single channel drive all of your revenue is not as good as having multiple channels you can rely on, whether Amazon, website, other marketplaces, or even retail wholesale for a lot of consumer product businesses. Having a customer base that's somewhat passionate about what you're doing is also key, and that plays into the concept of brand, which is hard for a lot of people to put their arms around, how do you define it, how do you value it? But that's something buyers are very focused on in the consumer world, have you built a brand, or have you built more of a widget-selling machine? Widget-selling machines are less valuable than brands.

One way we like to define brand is you've earned the right to have the next conversation with the customer, whether because they're referring you to friends, or because they have other things they now want to purchase from you. Are you building that loyalty, or that willingness for your customer base to go out and talk about you? Those are some key factors in the e-comm world. And we touched on this earlier, but supply chain has become a big focus too. Building a resilient, diversified supply chain is now actually becoming a big driver of valuation as well, ever since the pandemic plus all the tariff craziness.

Geoff: Nice. So the TL;DR sounds like predictable growth that isn't necessarily volatile in nature, decent channel diversification, supply chain diversification, and on the foundation of a solid brand where you have tons of referrals, potentially returning buyers, and all the amazing halo effects that come from having a really awesome brand. Anything else? It's interesting we didn't talk about accounting, and solid accounting, but I think it's a really important part of the discussion, because people are buying a business based on the fact that they have good, clean, accurate books. It's a necessity when somebody is evaluating a business so they can create a picture of all the dimensions we've talked about.

Jason: Yeah, and I would say, Geoff, it's funny, I think you make a great point there, I would say it's so essential and so expected that I didn't mention it.

Richard: Yeah, so this was.

Geoff: 100%, 100%. And speaking of that, Richard, it is essential, it is expected, how do you ensure your clients meet those expectations?

Richard: I think it's part of a larger discussion, if you want someone to buy you, well-designed, the business should mean that whoever buys it from you has nothing but a good time. So you have proper systems and processes for everything, from your logistics and supply chain to how you do customer support and accounting.

On the accounting side, the problem is most founders don't understand what that process looks like. I've had people say, "I'm paying you, QuickBooks just does it, doesn't it?" No, it doesn't. We have that regularly. A proper process where you map every single process from sales through to bank purchases through to inventory, and keeping proper documentation, is incredibly important. If you have a bill in QuickBooks with no attached source documents, remember, due diligence isn't just going to look and go "your accounts look nice," they want to look at the supporting documentation and how it got in. How did you calculate landed cost, is there a spreadsheet or some tool, where was that maintained? Keeping a proper, consistent process for the accounting is incredibly important for due diligence, that's what due diligence really is, coming in to audit the data. What you guys do so well is every time you push a packet of sales data across, there's an attachment with all the payout and sales data. That's due diligence, really, very different from someone just posting a Shopify report and passing a journal with no attachments in QuickBooks.

Geoff: Jason, Richard, I've personally learned a lot from both of you today. I think this was an amazing video, and I hope it was valuable for ecommerce business owners currently evaluating which path to take, whether to continue cash flowing their business or start thinking about selling. I think the common theme here is that regardless of what path you choose, you need clear visibility into your financials, you need accurate books, because that will set you up for long-term success no matter what direction you take.

Is there anything we might have missed, or that you'd like to emphasize? Richard, I'll start with you.

Richard: Yeah, just to say, I'm definitely a believer in keeping businesses, that's my bias because of personal experience, but everyone who's ever had a successful exit that I've worked with, you realize that businesses are bought, not sold, the power sits on that side. So you need to set everything up today for 24 months down the line so you have a good story to tell. You have accurate data, you have accurately documented processes, and the buyer must be set up for success. If you don't do that, you're going to get murdered on valuation.

Geoff: Yeah.

Richard: No deal.

Geoff: Because you never know when somebody is going to come knocking.

Richard: Oh, and you're going to want to sell, right?

Geoff: Yeah.

Richard: You want to go live on an island somewhere. You don't want to have to try and fix up 24 months of accounting at the last minute.

Geoff: Yeah, totally agree. Jason, anything you'd want to add?

Jason: Yeah, just our recommendation, in addition to having someone like Richard and his team on your side making sure your accounting is great, and somebody like us on your side making sure you understand your strategic and ultimate M&A options, you need a really solid personal financial planner on your side too. The three come together to help founders get clear visibility on the right way for this business to integrate into their personal financial goals, so we can all work together to make sure that founder is making the right decision for them and their family.

Geoff: Love that. So thanks for watching the video. All of the resources we've talked about will be linked in the description below, including links to GW Partners and Chronos Now, so you can reach out to either team after this conversation. Jason, Richard, I just want to thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us and for taking the time. And to everyone watching, we'll see you next time.